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15 January 2014 @ 05:44 pm
[meta]: rape and responsibility  
Today, as I was scrolling my way through Tumblr, I came across a blog called Women Against Feminism. Being curious, I clicked on the blog, and was instantly baffled by the multitude of things being discussed and derided by these women. Some of these attitudes are just so confusing, such as this one:

Excuse me, but what?

Let me give you an analogy to better prove my point. Let's say you get drunk at a party. While you're drunk, and possibly passed out, someone comes along and takes your watch. Have you been irresponsible? Well, yes. Has the other person committed theft? Yes. They have.

Being irresponsible does not excuse something bad that has happened to you. Forgetting to lock your door at night does not excuse somebody coming into your house and murdering you. Regardless of your irresponsibility, they have committed a crime. You may or may not have agreed to that person taking your watch; but you are intoxicated, and somebody who takes you at your word re: sex while you are under the influence is committing the crime of rape. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

By posing the issue as it is the woman's fault for being drunk/irresponsible, you are essentially taking all responsibility off the man. (Or the woman, since it is possible for a woman to rape a woman; the problem here is with rapists, not with men in general.) You are saying that a woman drunk is a free pass, because the woman has already committed the irresponsibility of getting drunk; whatever you do to her doesn't matter. You are saying that the natural state of woman is to keep out of situations that place her at risk of rape. Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but: it is not our fault that you, whatever gender you are, made the decision to rape us.

It is society's responsibility to foster social attitudes which help make the world safe. Punching somebody while drunk is a bad thing and constitutes assault, regardless of whether you are drunk or not. So why the double standard for sex-related crimes? Feminism isn't a case of women vs men; it is a case of changing societal values and beliefs, not just about women, but about men as well, so that everybody - man or woman - can all honestly say that they feel safe.

And this should mean that a woman can happily get tipsy without having to worry that she'll be raped.
Nausicaa: <hot fuzz> the horrornausicaa83 on January 15th, 2014 08:06 am (UTC)
One time I was with a group of female friends, happily chatting, and a woman walked by with a very revealing dress, and they all commented "well, she's asking for it, amirite" "she shouldn't wear that if she doesn't want to be raped" and so on. I was disgusted and appalled.

Not to mention they couldn't even know if any of us who'd stayed silent had been raped in the past. They were saying those horrible things and being incredibly insensitive in the same breath. And they were all women! I was shocked.

When I was a kid it was my dad who taught me about feminism, consent, and everything. I grew up and realized he was the odd voice in a choir of people, man and women, who treat the female body as an object, a commodity. So very depressing. =_=
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 16th, 2014 04:48 am (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. I think the problem with quite a lot of feminists is that they focus on attacking male perception only - whereas female perception, as a result of the way society has been constructed, is also a huge part of the problem. And how will men ever respect women when we won't respect ourselves?
Caroline Lambcarolinelamb on January 15th, 2014 09:20 am (UTC)
Femina feminae lupa est :(
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 16th, 2014 04:48 am (UTC)
Denorios: woman silenceddenorios on January 15th, 2014 11:45 am (UTC)
Ugh. There is not enough NOPE in the world.

It saddens me that women can hold this kind of opinion about other women, that they can lack any trace of self-awareness. It just kind of reinforces my belief that these days we don't need men to oppress us, we're doing just fine oppressing and shaming ourselves.
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 16th, 2014 04:50 am (UTC)
I think a lot of the time when this sort of thing happens... women are just not really aware of the issues. Like, they haven't necessarily thought it through properly. Back before I was exposed to all the discussion on Tumblr about these issues, I probably would've victim-shamed too, just purely out of ignorance, and not really out of any viciousness. And I guess it's always more difficult to hold a point of view that is considered new, or fresh, or different; and society has gotten so used to holding this oppressive view that we, as women, have gotten used to it too...
super automatictsukinochiyuki on January 15th, 2014 04:46 pm (UTC)
(sorry if this seems like it's coming outta nowhere, I lurk)
I feel like even the idea of blaming the victim for rape is confusing... It's like, 'that man did not have enough restraint to prevent himself from violating a person' >>> 'haha it's that person's fault because of the way s/he looks'

It's just like you said on the whole stealing thing!

Regarding that blog in general though, I can kinda see where some of these women are coming from because feminism does get a really bad rep, especially from some of those SJWs who attack but really have no basis for their angry rants. There are self-proclaimed 'feminists' who devalue the experiences of others to try and always look right, and don't seem to remember that feminism, at it's core is supposed to be for the advancement of equality of gender, not 'crush the patriarchy i hate all men and you're x race so you don't count'. And misguided stuff like that really seems to fuel the equally misguided backlash and bulk of the posts on the 'why I don't need feminism page'.
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 16th, 2014 04:55 am (UTC)
(not at all! I love meeting/chatting with new people <3)
Yeah it doesn't actually make a lot of sense. Every person has an ability to make their own decision, based on what their principles are, and how they weigh up a situation. Just because something is there in front of you, does not make it right for you to decide to take it.

I have definitely seen a lot of strange feminist attacks in the past - I was saying to a friend just yesterday that I think the problem is that, once you get really bogged down in radical feminism, you forget that the main point of feminism is offering the same choices and opportunities to women as are offered to men. And then you let them choose. You don't judge them on their choices. Feminism is about opportunities, not about making the decision which you believe the woman should've made. So things like, oh, feminism will judge me for choosing to quit my job in order to raise kids - that is a mistaken idea of what feminism is! Feminism isn't about that. Feminism is about saying: you have a choice in doing whatever you want; nobody should have the right to force you to quit your job in order to raise kids. But if you want to do that, that is fine.
heavenly_rain: What?heavenly_rain on January 15th, 2014 05:09 pm (UTC)
I can't even get past the first page...

I'm not surprised that these women don't fully understand what feminism is. Even in my workplace I have to constantly remind people that without feminism the majority of the staff wouldn't even have their jobs!

I assume these women are in a position of privilege that they refuse to see anyone else's point of view?
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 16th, 2014 04:56 am (UTC)
It's definitely an issue most people don't realise or choose to ignore because it's inconvenient... and yeah. A lot of these women emphasise themselves, and their experience; I have never been raped/objectified/sexually harassed/in any way personally affected by sexism, therefore it doesn't exist and feminism is bullshit. Which, er. Is faulty thinking.
i'm on a website where people fuck fruit: CM Garciageckoholic on January 15th, 2014 07:51 pm (UTC)
I just... WHOA. How can some people not get it into their heads that crimes aren't automatically caused by the victim as soon as sex is involved? It baffles me. So does that tumblr, seriously, WHAT THE FUCK.
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 16th, 2014 04:57 am (UTC)
i'm on a website where people fuck fruit: 28daysgeckoholic on January 16th, 2014 11:32 am (UTC)
EXACTLY. What about that is so fucking hard to understand?? Just. Yeah. Baffling.
Safaiasafaiagem on January 16th, 2014 05:10 pm (UTC)
As someone who was drunk and got taken advantage of by someone I considered a friend this pisses me off to no end.
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 18th, 2014 01:45 pm (UTC)
Oh seriously? Ugh. What happened afterwards? Did he/she apologise for it? That's so awful :( the worst kind of betrayal is by your friends :(
Safaiasafaiagem on January 18th, 2014 02:58 pm (UTC)
No, we have never talked about it. I was convinced by a lot of people at the time that since it was a 'don't remember saying no don't remember saying yes' type of thing that it wasn't a big deal. We continue to run in the same social circles to this day. It took me a long time to be able to look at him without hating him. Not long after it happened I had to lock myself in a potter potty at a soccer tailgate because he was being a jerk. It got better after a long time but I have not and will not ever let my guard down like that again.
ABC, her eyelids say.epistolic on January 19th, 2014 05:25 am (UTC)
Wow. Yeah this is one of the big problems about rape, I think - people keep trying to convince the victim that it isn't a big deal, because I think they don't want to have to deal with the repercussions of it turning out to be rape; they don't want to rock the boat, you know? Which ends up making the victim self-blame, and also makes them feel a bit like everybody thinks they're delusional. I'm so sorry that this had to happen to you :(